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So as you put all the words to that, you know, it has to trigger a lot for each of us, but Rachael. Called out by God. It was a Jesus-following, Jesus-honoring kind of organization saying that we are the best disciples in all the world. When Narcissism Comes to Church (Alan with Chuck DeGroat) - IMDb Maybe thats still the remnants of growing up in the reformed tradition. Gary came to me one day and said, Chuck, Im going to say this about as clear as I can say it. Anbefalet af medierne. I think, by and large, what Ive gotten is thank you for being kind, you know, thank you for holding a larger vision. But to say as we come to a close, there is hope with the reality that there can be a calling out from, and youve seen it with regard to people, so even those folks who are highly diagnosable, you know, with hard, good work, there could be movement. There are narcissistic style types and disorders. She is my favorite 16th-century reformer. And Ive worked with pastors who might be on the narcissistic spectrum and they mightve gotten some feedbackAnd theyll do the work to get to a place of greater groundedness. False self.  Are you interested in starting a podcast? Today on the podcast, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen have a timely conversation with Chuck DeGroat, professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, licensed therapist, and spiritual director. Ive seen curiosity since the book came out, Ive had pastors reach out to me to say, I wonder if Im narcissistic. D: And when you disrupt thisand you have beenyou have been called into particular churches, into denominations. and how to begin to notice the parts of yourself that need attention. Chuck DeGroat is the author of the book When Narcissism Comes to Church which came out in 2020. Enjoy! Chuck Degroat Podcasts Last Updated: Feb 7th, 2022 The 8 Best Chuck Degroat Podcasts 1) Chuck DeGroat Our conversation today is with Chuck DeGroat. And I just felt really grateful for your labor to bring that kind of nuance to something that I think people use so flippantly but dont understand the power of it, and the ways it hides in different styles of relating. Chuck DeGroat on How Narcissism Shows Up For Each Enneagram Type You know, in your psychology. Divided heart.  Thats an important piece. I want my students to adore me. We have our own narcissistic tendencies, but were also, in one sense, weve grown up with narcissistic structures, leaders, powers and principalities. We found 4 people in 4 states named Chuck Degroat living in the US. C: In the last five years or so, weve seen these hashtags #churchtoo, #metoo. Chuck DeGroat is professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, and senior fellow at Newbigin House of Studies in San Francisco. When you say that, like, yes, there are all these churches who could actually use resources on support and are doing the work and are actually indigenous to that community that you want to serve. Today, psychologist, author, and spiritual director Chuck Degroat joins me for a killer episode about the nine faces of narcissism. Help keep our radio programming and podcasts . I wish there was. And then to be able to say, can we be in this moment where we can name in our families, friendships, working relationships, in the systems that were part of that actually do good, have narcissistic, as well as racist realities. The guy who looked the part, and dressed the part, whose spouse looked the part as well. And we could get into each one of those in-depth. I think it speaks to our cultural moment and why so many people who feel disenfranchised, in a way, gather around a particularly powerful leader. Enjoy! But thats a different trajectory. I think Im connecting the conversation a lot more in the last couple of years to the larger conversation about race and white supremacy because Im seeing this in white evangelical contexts, where people of color often find themselves on the other side of the narcissistic bite, or arrow, or whatever you want to call the wound, you know? Im the sufferer, you know? You have an imagination or desire, you have a realistic imagination around what is often possible, but a deep desire to open the door to a different kind of healing when were looking at these systems that are, in some ways, narcissistic systems, or at least drawn to narcissism. Yet love requires more than a dream or those loving feelings we so much desire. What prompted it? C: Thatsyou ask really complicated questions, Dan. Portland's Dilemma, Documentaries, and Ghosts With Chuck Klosterman Ive worked with systems that are narcissistic, where theres a collective grandiosity. Learn more about Chuck DeGroat. For more than 25 years, I've guided many on a more spacious journey into a life of wholeheartedness. This city needs the gospel, and I am the white savior for the city. This church planting colonialism, have you seen it? How did this come to be? The Integrity Crisis in Today's Churches [ mini-series ] In Part 4 of our mini-series on Integrity in the Church, Chuck DeGroat talks about the signs you work for a narcissist, how to tell if you're a narcissist, why church planters are prime candidates for narcissistic leadership, and the problem with hyper . Certainly the general statistics do show that more men suffer from this than women. . And actually, I did spend time in Romans 8 talking about groaning and this active waiting, that is, its a movement. Can we move on? Narcissism: What It Is and Why It's So Toxic with Chuck DeGroat But that fragility thats splitting even in the hero/martyr. Its not just the powerful eight, you know, but its also the dramatic four and the analytical five and the hyper-vigilant six and the benevolent narcissist, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So just keep that in mind. And Ive got this course that I need to teach and this podcast I need to do. And I think sometimes in genuine reform movements, it has to happen in the margins. Here's how I can help. This generation of church planters that Ive worked with over the last, lets say, 15 to 20 years were children of baby boomers, or children of people who grew up in an era of victory, post World War Two victory. And I love that youre linking white supremacy to that. Thats the tricky part of it, right? Im not racist. 2501 Elliott Avenue Seattle, WA 98121 And so theyre drawn like moths to a fire, to a flame. GOD'S GRAND FINALE | Save America Ministries with Chuck Crismier Our sponsor, Libsyn, makes it easy. What the healing path is for all nines types to keep narcissism in check. D: Do you find that there is a growing curiosity? C: Thats right. And oftentimes, in their own world, have created grandiose dreams. Chuck DeGroat - All Rights Reserved So, I dont know why in the world youd ever think that Im on the narcissistic spectrum because Im just a, you know, Im a bold sinner. Guests: Jenai Auman and Mary DeMuth on Apple Podcasts. Set apart. Mandy loves the opportunity to engage Christian thinkers and leaders through her speaking and writing. And so Id sit around and theyd say, Well, he is Hes so gifted. Chuck DeGroat: How to Recognize Narcissism in a Church Leader Yeah. Time stamps: [00:03:13] Amys experience on the launch team for Chucks book, When Narcissism Comes to Church. D: Yeah, exactly. Oh! This podcast is a part of the Narcissism series. He is an author (numerous books), speaker, consultant, and therapist.His book, When Narcissism Comes to Church is getting great reviews while the topic is a conversation that has been a long time coming.SUPPORT FOR OUR MINISTRY:Help keep our radio programming and podcasts going with a donation, either one time or monthly. We typically think of narcissism manifesting itself as big, loud, overtly arrogant, etc. You know, I see in the church planting world, which leads to a kind of colonialism that Ive seen in church planting, where I could just go into the city, forget the fact that there are, you know, 72 black churches in the city. Chuck DeGroat: How to Recognize Narcissism in a Church Leader The humility you bring in naming your own part in this. Chuck DeGroat is the author of the book When Narcissism Comes to Church which came out in 2020. @jasondaye. Untangled Faith: 46: When Narcissism Comes to Church. Guest: Chuck Hope Beyond Misery: Lasting Lessons, Part 2 - OnePlace Chuckhas been married to Sara for 25 years and has two daughters. But narcissism can show up in very understated, subtle ways in each Enneagram type. I think, Rachael, youve mastered divinity. So when you work with children who have been in narcissistic families, narcissistic parents, churches, political systems, what do you offer? Thats what makes it tougher nowadays to answer this question. Were talking about narcissism on a continuum and what it looks like when each Enneagram type is manifesting a narcissistic style or type. I would be really curious to get your assessment of it. Of course, we have the DSM, which is kind of the Bible for psychologists, right? Snippets are an easy way to highlight your favorite soundbite from any piece of audio and share with friends, or make a trailer for The B Sides Podcast What are the consequences of a narcissistic pastor or faith leader? The paperback edition releases soon making this a perfect time for a conversation with him on the podcast. Let us know what you're supporting.As always, we encourage you if you are struggling with your mental health and are in crisis to call the mental health hotline. I mean when I think about this, this is the age-old question of belonging, to be freed from longing. Say more about that. But you need space after some of those encounters, whether people go but its so easy for you to be up on the stage talking and to say its not as easy as you may think. I think thats probably what Id say initially on the path to healing. I think your first book was Leaving Egypt but lets just say you are a prolific presence, and a gift to the community of God in terms of dealing with things a lot of people have chosen to escape. Chuckis the Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary Holland MI, and Co-Founder and a Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies, San Francisco. Listener Resources: Follow Chuck DeGroat on Twitter Read Chucks book, When Narcissism Comes to Church Learn more about Chuck and the resources he offers Listen to the first podcast episode in a series on Spiritual Abuse. And I think there is going to have to be a movement of repentance that has centered a more narcissistic presence or structure. Minister, Im a minister of word and sacrament. Go to agoranetworkministries.com and click the donation link. Narcissism and the Church with Chuck DeGroat You can subscribe for free and receive reflections and resources, including the latest books hes recommending. -What is narcissistic personality disorder? The ideal hungry follower is sort of like, what are those little fish that attach themselves to, like, larger fish? And I guess I understand how people are like a moth to flame to something that presents as big enough and clear enough and rigid enough, you know, for all the complexity. When Narcissism Comes To Church. And you talk a lot about showing up. Im a follower of Jesus. It has something to do with a need for control. So people need to hear that there is a very, very heartbreaking reality about certain systems that seem to invite narcissists in, particularly for leadership. Because, I want to be so conscious of the fact that youve got other things on your schedule, my dear friend. That resolves that. And yet, Chuck, you do know, youve been in leadership, youve been in positions both in church and in the context of Christian education, which is interesting. I think in a more contemporary sense, I like the work of Jerrold Post. Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary and Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies in San Francisco. C: Well, you know, the eights always get targeted. I constantly confess my sevenness. C: Yes. In The Culture of Narcissism he talks about the longing to be freed from longing, which I think is profound. In Part 4 of our mini-series Integrity in the Church, Chuck DeGroat talks about the signs you work for a narcissist, how to tell if you're a narcissist, why church planters are prime candidates for narcissistic leadership, and the problem with hyper-therapeutic culture. Dr. Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary and the author of When Narcissism Comes to Church. The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Join the #1 community of podcast lovers and never miss a great podcast. And, on a larger scale, how do we recognize the symptoms of a narcissistic church culture? Im not crazy. Church of the Highlands opens $4.5 million 'pastoral recovery' center C: Yeah, Yeah. And its about living in that tension in a relationship, right? Author, licensed therapist, spiritual director, and speaker Chuck DeGroat joins Amy Fritz on the Untangled Faith Podcast. And were seeing this across denominations. Copyright 2023 Apple Inc. All rights reserved. Hes spent 20+ years in a fluid combination of pastoral ministry, seminary teaching, and clinical counseling. [laughs] No, Im going to let the expert who wrote a really great book on this go first. In today's episode, I talk with Chuck DeGroat about the dynamics of narcissism. Allen and Chuck DeGroat have a focused conversation about what narcissism looks like in a pastor or church leader. Allen and Chuck DeGroat have a focused conversation about what narcissism looks like in a pastor or church leader. Resources When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat Soul Watch on Episode Audio: Chapter 1 - How to Know If You're a Narcissist Have you ever accused someone of being a narcissist? The Allender Center is an institution housed within The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. This has to stop. Guest: Chuck DeGroat July 13, 2022 Season 5 Episode 46 Amy Fritz 30 30 00:00 00:00 Author, licensed therapist, spiritual director, and speaker Chuck DeGroat joins Amy Fritz on the Untangled Faith Podcast. Change Makers EPS 42: Dr. Chuck DeGroat on Narcissism in the Church A sense of entitlement, grandiosity on an international stage. Youre supposed to be giving them love languages, concepts and you know, Mars and Venus kinds of things. Release Calendar Top 250 Movies Most Popular Movies Browse Movies by Genre Top Box Office Showtimes & Tickets Movie News India Movie Spotlight. You can subscribe for free and receive reflections and resources, including the latest books he's recommending. Are you finding that in the work youre doing that there is a growing curiosity? I actually think that this massive moment of disorientation and deconstruction is leading us to a whole new way of thinking about church. He is an author, speaker, consultant, and therapist. R: Yeah, yeah, I think its in that healing process until you get a sense of yourself back because thats such the experience of that shattering. Holy. And I remember this began for me in the church, the first church where I served, where I was a counseling elder, and I was naming dynamics of emotional abuse and narcissism, and it became pretty clear pretty quickly that this is not anything that you need to be doing, Chuck. Resources: When Narcissism Comes to Church GRACE Narcissism and the System it Breeds by Dr. Diane Langberg Redeeming Power A Church Called Tov Somethings Not Right This podcast is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. There may be some mitigation, but dont expect transformation. Dr. Chuck DeGroat- November 30, 2020 0 Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, Holland MI, and Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies, San Francisco. Theres no one that comes close to us. So my 60, I may be traveling more like 72 MPH to depart, and to now hold what I think Rachaels putting words to: Can we hold the tension of both? Im at heart, a narcissist. C: [laughs] Well, so, its really interesting. Suggest an edit Podcast Credits Typology Share Profile Creator Details Episode Count 1 Podcast Count 1 But it has been something that Ive just toyed with, played with since I first discovered the enneagram in the late nineties. By signing up, you'll be subscribed to the #1 podcast discovery newsletter, Podyssey Picks. Thats what were all in this trying to do. A kind of, we have been filled with the presence of narcissism for a long season. They want to hear: we are in a war. youre looking for something. I think weve seen the reckoning around a number of big-name church planters and pastors who have been called out and have had to leave high profile positions. . We ask that, as you listen to this conversation, you pay attention to what it stirs in your body and give yourself the care and space you need to engage. In the same way, I find racism, narcissism, that reluctance to name Im not a narcissist. He is Lasting Love. And whether its a classroom of 10 people or an audience of 10,000, on one level, it doesnt really matter. Additionally, Jason served for nearly two decades in pastoral leadership, primarily as a lead pastor, in several contexts, including church plant re-launch, multisite church, multiethnic urban church, and an established suburban church. Find lignende podcasts. @jasondaye. Guest: Chuck DeGroat - Untangled Faith Podcast 46: When Narcissism Comes to Church. So theres a really interesting dynamic there. How narcissism shows up in all nine types, and. His apologetic writings and public debates on the historical Jesus and the problem of evil have helped many skeptics embrace faith, and his writings and seminars on spiritual transformation have had a revolutionary, freeing impact on thousands of believers. National Park Service Director Chuck Sams on the future of America's I have not showed up very well. The paperback edition releases soon making this a perfect time for a conversation with him on the podcast. And were not talking about people with full-blown narcissistic personality disorder per se. LASTING LOVE can be a dream come true. We are going to introduce our third party in a moment, but lets just say we have come out of a profoundly difficult year into a new, profoundly difficult year where we cant escape trauma. Kicked my butt over the course of three years. C: Yes, yes, yes. C: In many ways, this generation of church planters, to talk more generally, and speak to the church. And yet when you walk out of your office and through the atrium at the seminary, youre going about 60 miles an hour to get your cup of coffee and to get back to your office, and Im calling out your name and youre not even responding. You know, when I look at our political environment, lets just say right now, the white evangelical church, I would like to think that all these tools that weve offered, all these insights that weve offered over the years have amounted to something. Dr. Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, MI, and Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies, San Francisco. Thats great. How prevalent is it among evangelical church leaders in the U.S.? So, this is the story over and over and over and over again. There is a redemptive arc that we get to participate in, but it goes back to yes, I think I do see people having more language, but the way its been integrated and connected to story, not just this is my personality. There is such a high wall of defense that keeps them from any sense of vulnerability which leads to any sons of honest, The Chosen Pauses Season 4 Filming Indefinitely As Hollywood Actors Go on Strike, Damar Hamlin Presents Service Award to Buffalo Bills Trainers at ESPY Awards, MinistryWatch Tells Donors Not To Give to T.D. Those with NPD are really not interested in doing that work. Now available on iTunes, Google Play, and Stitcher. This podcast is a part of the Narcissism series. 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Engage the three questions that open you to a whole new inner experience through a FREE video introduction to Chuck and his work on wholeheartedness. Chuck is a licensed therapist and spiritual director and for over 20 years has been counseling pastors with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), as well as those wounded by narcissistic leaders and systems. Prior to joining the PastorServe team, Jason served as Vice President of Ministry Mobilization at Outreach, Inc., and as the Executive Director of the National Back to Church Sunday movement. And theres always a story., By and large, a lot of what we see with narcissistic personality disorder emerges out of really painful life experiences., I think if I boil this whole project down to one thing, it is to say to folks [who have suffered from someone elses narcissism], You are not crazy., There is the narcissistic leader, but then there is what we call the ideal hungry follower., Get care. The problem is, I quote you too much in my books, and then when I see quotes from my books, theyre always your quotes. So, the ability to hold the tension, shadow, and glory together. Get counseling, get with a clinicianwho understands these kinds of dynamics., When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse by Chuck DeGroat, Check out Chucks website C: Yeah, I would like to say theres a short story and theres a long story. Yeah, probably the hardest part of the book for people who have read it, I mean, I thought that Id get a, you know, punch in the nose from pastors saying youre way too hard on us, youre way too hard on the church. Chuck has been married to Sara for 27 years, and has two adult daughters. We cant try to fix it too quickly. And as we address this issue of narcissism, we cannot escape the reality that we live among narcissistic cultures, systems, and individuals. Summary St. Augustine referred to "the scattered self," and Christians today report feeling fragmented, busy, and overwhelmed. Podcast-akademiet. Claudio Naranjo, one of the godfathers of the enneagram, called the seven the archetype of narcissism. Amy and Chuck talk about all things narcissism including the many faces of narcissism in faith communities, what systemic narcissism looks like, and what to do when you hear reports that a leader you admire has hurt someone. Theres not a medication for narcissism. R: Im like, can you tell me? And yet, there is something in this day calling us to engage this in a way that you have not seen, given that this has been some of your primary work for a sizable period. Toughest people to love I thought you were describing me but I would say indeed, it is a profound work. Really, Dans work taught me that 25 years ago, but thats hard when you have experienced the abuse of the narcissist because its black and white at that point, right? Hes raised all this money. We are being bombarded. I see some superiority. The cost is not minimal. I remember a student came to me before COVID, before everything got shut down and said, Chuck, you know, you talk a lot about presence. But were really asking, our audience to not blanche and walk away from a discussion where youre implicated, but where you also have to face the fact that youve been drawn into relationship and into systemic servitude to structures that have kept you blind and, in many ways, continuing to do harm to yourself and to others. -Do you think that churches are particularly susceptible to being taken over by people with narcissistic personalities? Sign In; . But paradoxically, the other side of the gift is the curse. As you said at the beginning, that there is a zeitgeist, a spirit of ownership of some level of the effects of narcissism? I see it in pockets. An Interview with Peyton Jones: Ministry Ninja. And so they form the golden calf. The Bill Simmons Podcast. D: Well, theres something of an intersection between lament and groaning. I dont know if you guys have seen that, but thats what Im seeing. How do you know what is true? He needs to go, you know? He knows firsthand the devastation narcissism leaves in its wake and how insidious and painful it is. People need to know your work and your life and particularly this book, When Narcissism Comes to Church. Were going to be talking about church, but were also talking about families. Im just wondering if were not coming to a moment of massive reckoning within the church where we might find the institutional church in the next 10 years not quite having the same power that it has had for the last, lets say 50 to 200 years. D: It really is life-giving to read that. Divided heart.  A friend of mine calls this the Church of Refugia. D: And for me, its a relief that Im not the only narcissist as an eight among the nine. Hjlp ndvendig til podcasts. All rights reserved. I try to do that throughout, but you know, I even begin by saying, theres not one definition or clinical category that defines who we are. If you continue in your current pattern, you will be dangerous to the church. Beauty and brokenness, light and shadow. R: Yes. In this week's conversation on FrontStage BackStage, host Jason Daye is joined by Chuck DeGroat, a licensed therapist and spiritual director, who serves as professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary. -What is the difference between someone who has narcissistic tendencies and someone who has narcissistic personality disorder? Maybe I could pause there for us to have some comment on that. As a follow up to last weeks conversation, Dr. Chuck DeGroat returns to the podcast to answer listener questions about narcissism with Dan and Rachael. And my first response was not curiosity. Type is like a really bad cough on top of a cold, And disorder is like a full-blown flu., Those who do this work are seeing, more and more, men in particular on the narcissistic spectrum, and thats alarming., There are features of grandiosity [in a certain personality type] that we might want to have a conversation about., What gives me hope is that pastors are becoming more curious about this., I think that centeredness is so very important. I dont have time for this! Its hard to talk about these things that I think people feel labeled and they feel defensive, and they feel like Im trying to do a good thing. A sense of Manifest Destiny. Podcast Discovery It's dialogue that demands decision. I run this business. Chuck DeGroat: How to Recognize Narcissism in a Chu There is something that youve got to grapple with and to receive while still honoring. I actually used the enneagram to get into nine different faces of narcissism, which would be much too long to talk about right now. And I think thats again back to what Rachael was saying earlier. So I mean, I need the credit! And we can reprise and return to what youve invited. At least not in an obvious sense. As a missionary getting ready to return to Brazil, this podcast is spot on for me. They cant wait any longer. Leadership Can You "Narcissist-Proof" a System? They just dont get the press that larger churches do., Its not just the megachurch pastors.